Let's try this.

[Dennis Bratcher]

Let's try this. In light of the new Nazarene statement on human sexuality that emphasizes grace and ministry, what is the theological and/or biblical rationale for not allowing LGBT persons to volunteer and work in the children's or youth department?  I am thinking especially of LG people who are in a committed married relationship, attend church regularly, and are involved in other church activities.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Brandon Brown]

I would say there is no theological or Biblical rationale. This falls under the same heading of associate memebership, etc. Of course they must complete Nazsafe or whatever it is called now. There will be those who try to argue a false pedophile or other emotional response. These are ministries that require a special calling and if I were in charge would welcome any who have that calling/talent.

[Mark Bolerjack]

Does this mean that you are endorsing their lifestyle?

[Brandon Brown]

Jul 25, 2017 14:19:47 GMT -5 Mark Bolerjack said:

Does this mean that you are endorsing their lifestyle?

No more than the Church is endorsing anyone or their choices who volunteers and participates the life of itself. 

[Kyle Borger]

In the past my observant behavior of the LGBT community was relegated to that of a sexual deviant with no moral compass. I suppose this information was by and large obtained via gay parades where many were flaunting their sexuality in public which of course led to my conclusions. My response then would be that they were not suitable for any type of ministry because their every action would be geared toward satisfying their deviant sexual desires and could not be trusted to even be in the building.

I fear that some retain this thought.

Now, I would respond on an individual basis as I would with everyone. I have higher expectations with leaders than I do those who help. I am not above putting someone new in their faith into a classroom with children, provided that I have satisfied my safety protocols and have other trusted adults present. Teaching children can be a great tool to help new Christians learn the fundamentals because quite frankly we rarely dive into the Old Testament with the same vigor as we do in the children's department.

The connection and relationship with anyone would be that they are submissive to God and seeking to be more so. That any temptation from which they currently suffer is not active and they are seeking help.

[Eric Frey]

There is none. In fact there is no basis, whatsoever to keep an openly LGBT person who lives according to our statement about sexuality from serving in ANY capacity in the church.

[Dennis Bratcher]

Jul 28, 2017 8:30:28 GMT -5 Eric Frey said:

There is none. In fact there is no basis, whatsoever to keep an openly LGBT person who lives according to our statement about sexuality from serving in ANY capacity in the church.

Reflective thoughts.

From the Nazarene statement on human sexuality:

"Therefore, in order to resist adding to the brokenness of sin and to be able to witness to the beauty and uniqueness of God’s holy purposes for our bodies, we believe members of the body of Christ, 43 enabled by the Spirit, can and should refrain from: . . . Sexual activity between people of the same sex."

So, would you conclude that your position would require celibacy in all LG cases?

It would be easy, and tempting, to use CA 701 as a new form of legalism. Yet, as I read it, it was never intended that way, which would violate the spirit and tenor of the entire document. However, the focus of the document is not on practical application but on how we as the people of God respond to the "brokenness" of our world.

"Restoring humans to the likeness of Jesus requires confession, forgiveness, formative practices, sanctification, and Godly counsel – but most of all, it includes the welcome of love which invites the broken person into the circle of grace known as the church. If we fail to honestly confront sin and brokenness, we have not loved. If we fail to love, we cannot participate in God’s healing of brokenness."

The document concludes with an acknowledgement of the difficulty of putting this into practice in the life of the church, especially on a global scale:

"As the global church receives and ministers to the people of our world, the 18 faithful outworking of these statements as congregations is complex and must be navigated with care, humility, courage, and discernment."

It seems to me that it is an inadequate response to retreat to the poles in either direction, either to exclude such persons (they're all sinners) or to totally accept a lifestyle without reservation (there's nothing wrong with . . . ). I understand the complexities of the issue, the problem with the term "lifestyle", etc.. But that does not eliminate the difficulty of dealing with those complexities in widely diverse contexts. And too often the issue, especially in the USA, seems to fall along generational lines, which suggests a larger social dynamic at work as well.

Also, it seems to me that while CA 701 takes a significant and necessary step in our holiness theology, for which I am thankful, we are still struggling with what that looks like in practical application. The "care, humility, courage, and discernment" with which we are called to navigate this issue must arise from a well understood and clearly articulated theological and biblical base, just as all "practical theology" should be. Otherwise the church (as an incarnated expression of the Church) will simply reflect the larger cultural context in which it is located.

I'll admit, I'm still working on this.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Marsha Lynn]

Jul 28, 2017 12:30:12 GMT -5 Dennis Bratcher said:

Jul 28, 2017 8:30:28 GMT -5 Eric Frey said:

There is none. In fact there is no basis, whatsoever to keep an openly LGBT person who lives according to our statement about sexuality from serving in ANY capacity in the church.

Reflective thoughts.

From the Nazarene statement on human sexuality:

"Therefore, in order to resist adding to the brokenness of sin and to be able to witness to the beauty and uniqueness of God’s holy purposes for our bodies, we believe members of the body of Christ, 43 enabled by the Spirit, can and should refrain from: . . . Sexual activity between people of the same sex."

So, would you conclude that your position would require celibacy in all LG cases?

It would be easy, and tempting, to use CA 701 as a new form of legalism. Yet, as I read it, it was never intended that way, which would violate the spirit and tenor of the entire document. However, the focus of the document is not on practical application but on how we as the people of God respond to the "brokenness" of our world.

"Restoring humans to the likeness of Jesus requires confession, forgiveness, formative practices, sanctification, and Godly counsel – but most of all, it includes the welcome of love which invites the broken person into the circle of grace known as the church. If we fail to honestly confront sin and brokenness, we have not loved. If we fail to love, we cannot participate in God’s healing of brokenness."

The document concludes with an acknowledgement of the difficulty of putting this into practice in the life of the church, especially on a global scale:

"As the global church receives and ministers to the people of our world, the 18 faithful outworking of these statements as congregations is complex and must be navigated with care, humility, courage, and discernment."

It seems to me that it is an inadequate response to retreat to the poles in either direction, either to exclude such persons (they're all sinners) or to totally accept a lifestyle without reservation (there's nothing wrong with . . . ). I understand the complexities of the issue, the problem with the term "lifestyle", etc.. But that does not eliminate the difficulty of dealing with those complexities in widely diverse contexts. And too often the issue, especially in the USA, seems to fall along generational lines, which suggests a larger social dynamic at work as well.

Also, it seems to me that while CA 701 takes a significant and necessary step in our holiness theology, for which I am thankful, we are still struggling with what that looks like in practical application. The "care, humility, courage, and discernment" with which we are called to navigate this issue must arise from a well understood and clearly articulated theological and biblical base, just as all "practical theology" should be. Otherwise the church (as an incarnated expression of the Church) will simply reflect the larger cultural context in which it is located.

I'll admit, I'm still working on this.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

Thanks for your thoughts, Dennis. Locally, I can't imagine any same-sex couple being part of a church, Nazarene or any other. Actually, we're just beginning to see the odd same-sex couple out in the community with the courage to go public with their relationship. And none of those have stuck around long. Most gay people find somewhere else to live.

 We have had some cohabiting couples in our congregation. One person in such an arrangement was even on the church board until a new directory came out listing the same address for him and his girlfriend. I noticed when it came out and wondered how long it would take before that situation was addressed. Not long, was the answer. I was just glad it stopped at a stealth replacement on the board. It was never addressed in a public fashion, not even as a board agenda item. And ministry that didn't involve teaching or any hint of leadership was still an option.

I would say the rationalization for keeping any "sinner" out of ministry positions would revolve around the idea of condoning sin. Sin involving attitudes is overlooked and we're getting more tolerant/patient concerning alcohol and tobacco, but keeping any hint of sexual sin under wraps is still a requirement for leadership positions.

Actually, that cohabiting relationship became marriage and is now headed toward a nasty divorce. And one of the complaints of the injured party is the ongoing tolerance of the church toward this person. Grace still doesn't look good.

[Kevin Wright]

Jul 28, 2017 15:45:58 GMT -5 Marsha Lynn said:

We have had some cohabiting couples in our congregation. One person in such an arrangement was even on the church board until a new directory came out listing the same address for him and his girlfriend. I noticed when it came out and wondered how long it would take before that situation was addressed. Not long, was the answer. I was just glad it stopped at a stealth replacement on the board. It was never addressed in a public fashion, not even as a board agenda item. And ministry that didn't involve teaching or any hint of leadership was still an option.

I know of a pastor who will not dedicate a baby if the couple is cohabiting. After all, he is asking for a commitment from the parents to raise the child in a Godly, Christian home. There have been some uncomfortable conversations.

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2017 12:21:52 GMT -5 Dennis Bratcher said:

Let's try this. In light of the new Nazarene statement on human sexuality that emphasizes grace and ministry, what is the theological and/or biblical rationale for not allowing LGBT persons to volunteer and work in the children's or youth department?  I am thinking especially of LG people who are in a committed married relationship, attend church regularly, and are involved in other church activities.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

Dennis, it seems to me we either shun everyone who isn't sinless for any office in the church, or we accept that we're all struggling there and look at the person to decide what (s)he can or cannot do. 

In other words, we still lack a comprehensive discussion on sin, grace and its limits.

[Dennis Bratcher]

Jul 29, 2017 6:40:25 GMT -5 @hans said:

Jul 25, 2017 12:21:52 GMT -5 Dennis Bratcher said:

Let's try this. In light of the new Nazarene statement on human sexuality that emphasizes grace and ministry, what is the theological and/or biblical rationale for not allowing LGBT persons to volunteer and work in the children's or youth department?  I am thinking especially of LG people who are in a committed married relationship, attend church regularly, and are involved in other church activities.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

Dennis, it seems to me we either shun everyone who isn't sinless for any office in the church, or we accept that we're all struggling there and look at the person to decide what (s)he can or cannot do. 

In other words, we still lack a comprehensive discussion on sin, grace and its limits.

Yes, I think this is part of the issue. As we have moved away from an emphasis on the negative (sin and condemnation) to a better emphasis on a positive articulation of Wesleyan/holiness theology (grace and love), we have not adequately addressed the intersection and interaction of those two dimensions in practical application "on the ground." It does not seem theologically healthy to eliminate all mention of sin for the sake of an emphasis on grace, as much as that was probably inevitable given our history. An overreaction to imbalance is still imbalance.

This is complicated by a lack of a clearly articulated theology of the church as an incarnational expression of those who follow Christ. This is further complicated by the influence of revivalism on our tradition, which in turn was heavily influenced by a strong strand of Reformed theology with its emphasis on sin and judgment.

So, it seems to me that we need to start with a better understanding of the nature of the church, whether it is more a holy club, an ark, a hospital, a rehabilitation ward, etc., or a combination of any or all of these. And then factor into that the responsibility we have toward the weaker and weakest and most vulnerable members of our community. Hopefully that can be based, as I suggested, in sound biblical and theological principles and not just done ad hoc.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Emiko Cothran]

I sin at LEAST 3 times a week.

There's that time I yelled at my daughter because I was "up to here" with financial, work, and housing stress, housework, and other things and she made a mess at the worst possible time...

There's the time I was at the end of my shift at work, tired and with achey feet, long past ready to go home, when a helpless, non-verbal, senior with a soiled diaper reached out a hand toward me...
...and I literally passed by on the opposite side of the hall and pretended not to notice...

There's the time I sherked my chores to play on Facebook...

There's that time I picked a church with more perks for me then compassion for the poor...

The time I cussed out a broken AC unit...

The time I enjoyed a gossipy Naznet thread for my own mental stimulation...

That time I fed my daughter Mcdonald's because I was too lazy to cook....

Just saying...
Yet, I bet they would let ME teach despite my sinful behavior... and unlike a homosexual having sex with their committed life partner MY sins actually HURT someone...

If anyone who is not "perfect" according to the Manual or every penstroke of the Bible can not serve or work with kids then expect an empty and failing church

[Brian]

Isn't there a difference between sin we each may commit and then repent of, and being in a committed relationship in defiance of His commands, and sticking with it? Isn't the 2nd a tad more defiant?

[Emiko Cothran]

There are lots of "sins" people persist of "in defiance" because they do not recognize it as sin, or they see it as ultimately for the greater good.

Here is a short list:

*Being divorced and remarried

*Being married to a non-Christian

*Engaging in military service that includes violence or murder (even of enemies or accidental casualties)

*Law enforcement that involves force or violence or executions

*Fertility doctor who may fertilize 10 eggs and only 3 of them will ever be implemented

*Misusing natural resources or harming other animal species or the environment

*Someone who smokes, or drinks, or over eats, or now drinks coffee

*Someone who dresses immodestly, or uses swear words

*Someone who had an abortion because the child would have been so handicapped they could not afford it's very expensive 24 hour a day like life long care, and they feel they did the right thing

*Someone who accumulates massive wealth and lives lavishly while those they employ do not have basic necessities like food, shelter, and healthcare.

*Someone with massive wealth and lavish lifestyle who keeps most of their money for themselves and their loved ones and ignores the plight of the poor.

*Someone who loves their friends and hates their enemies

*Someone who masterbates

*Someone who votes for the wrong political party

Now, I do not see ALL of these as sinful, but some of them I do... And I bet my list is different from yours of which ones are worse... Yet sincere Christians can make a strong case for all of them- and do! Even the ones I disagree with.

And for many of them the Biblical case is much stronger and more emphatic then homosexuality.

[Gina Stevenson]

Author="bassmanbrian"

And who is this Brian who plays the bass? (someone must have not caught this yet). ☺

Think the specs here specify "real name."

Thank you.


(this may be removed once corrected)

[A. Lucas Finch]

Aug 9, 2017 4:21:55 GMT -5 Gina Stevenson said:

Author="bassmanbrian"

And who is this Brian who plays the bass? (someone must have not caught this yet). ☺

Think the specs here specify "real name."

Thank you.


(this may be removed once corrected)

Or maybe it's a Brian who likes to go bass fishing?

[Emiko Cothran]

Maybe his last name is "Bassman"? That's a name... I assume. It sounds potentially nameish.

[Gina Stevenson]

Aug 10, 2017 14:39:56 GMT -5 A. Lucas Finch said:

Aug 9, 2017 4:21:55 GMT -5 Gina Stevenson said:

Author="bassmanbrian"

And who is this Brian who plays the bass? (someone must have not caught this yet). ☺

Think the specs here specify "real name."

Thank you.


(this may be removed once corrected)

Or maybe it's a Brian who likes to go bass fishing?

Crossed my mind, but went w/the music (before finding two over on the old dotcom). ☺

[Brian]

Aug 11, 2017 14:09:26 GMT -5 Gina Stevenson said:

Aug 10, 2017 14:39:56 GMT -5 A. Lucas Finch said:

Or maybe it's a Brian who likes to go bass fishing?

Crossed my mind, but went w/the music (before finding two over on the old dotcom). ☺

I am a Brian.
I play bass guitar.
I have worked at several dot coms over the years.