WAKE UP NAZNET (.NET)

[Jim Bentley]

So....in an effort to create some movement here...and hopefully have some dialog that doesn't turn ugly .....

One thing I know that we can all agree on is the groups like the KKK are disgusting and full of hate...lets be clear on that. There is no excuse for the way they act or the ideals that they push and represent. That being said, why are people so against wanting to speak against the same violent behavior from the alt-left group that was represented in Charlottesville. If we believe in freedom, then didn't even a disgusting, racist group have the right to protest the removal of the statue in that park as long as it was without violence? Why did the Charlottesville police not do more to put themselves in between both sides of the protestors? Let's be real...some of the counter-protestors came looking for the same exact fight as some of the original protesters.....AND INITIATED IT. They had not intentions of a peaceful counter-protest. Why is it wrong to condemn them as well? And before you say that people are, if you watch the news at all, all they are doing is making excuses for them. I have not heard one condemnation for their acts. I have only heard condemnation for our president because he condemned them along with the violent kkk and nazi hate groups.

On the same note, why is it ok for a group of people (Durham, NC) to publicly destroy private government property while the police stand by and watch? Would it have been ok if a klan member tied a rope to a MLK statue and pulled it down? Would people have stood by and done nothing and condoned the behavior? You know as well as I do that there is no way they would have gotten away with it. Oh, and please don't give me the garbage that NC is now looking to find those responsible ....they were right there when it took place. They might arrest someone, but it will only be as a token. That was proven by the fact that they joined the other states caving to the pc left to take down these historical statues.

Again, don't call me a racist. Hate is a terrible thing. Slavery was a terrible thing. But you can't just erase history because you don't like something. Lets call hate and violence exactly what it is ....ON ALL SIDES.  

[Dennis Bratcher]

Are you commenting from the basis of civil rights or from the basis of Christian ethics?  The nature of the discussion kinda depends on which kingdom you consider yourself a primary citizen.  They are not the same.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Jim Bentley]

Aug 16, 2017 10:09:31 GMT -5 Dennis Bratcher said:

Are you commenting from the basis of civil rights or from the basis of Christian ethics?  The nature of the discussion kinda depends on which kingdom you consider yourself a primary citizen.  They are not the same.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

Dennis....shouldn't violence on both sides be condemned in either case? MLK was a promoter of peace. Taking a stand against something without stooping to their level. As a Christian, and based on Christian ethics, I do not for one minute condone anything that those hate groups promote. But at the same time, we shouldn't in any way condone those who came to Charlottesville looking for a fight making the first move...or even dressing themselves in the same way that the hate groups did. I also will not condone what happened in Durham. Like i said, had the same thing happened with the groups reversed, there would be such a loud outcry, it would be deafening.

[Dennis Bratcher]

Aug 16, 2017 10:23:43 GMT -5 Jim Bentley said:

Aug 16, 2017 10:09:31 GMT -5 Dennis Bratcher said:

Are you commenting from the basis of civil rights or from the basis of Christian ethics?  The nature of the discussion kinda depends on which kingdom you consider yourself a primary citizen.  They are not the same.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

Dennis....shouldn't violence on both sides be condemned in either case? MLK was a promoter of peace. Taking a stand against something without stooping to their level. As a Christian, and based on Christian ethics, I do not for one minute condone anything that those hate groups promote. But at the same time, we shouldn't in any way condone those who came to Charlottesville looking for a fight making the first move...or even dressing themselves in the same way that the hate groups did. I also will not condone what happened in Durham. Like i said, had the same thing happened with the groups reversed, there would be such a loud outcry, it would be deafening.

Are you advocating a pacifist position?  If so, then your argument might have some validity.  On the other hand, would you condemn Dietrich Bonhoeffer for participating in the plot to assassinate Hitler, which he did on Christian moral and ethical grounds?  That is not an excuse for violence.  It only highlights the complexity of the issue.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Cam Pence]

Aug 16, 2017 9:36:25 GMT -5 Jim Bentley said:

So....in an effort to create some movement here...and hopefully have some dialog that doesn't turn ugly .....

One thing I know that we can all agree on is the groups like the KKK are disgusting and full of hate...lets be clear on that. There is no excuse for the way they act or the ideals that they push and represent. That being said, why are people so against wanting to speak against the same violent behavior from the alt-left group that was represented in Charlottesville. If we believe in freedom, then didn't even a disgusting, racist group have the right to protest the removal of the statue in that park as long as it was without violence? Why did the Charlottesville police not do more to put themselves in between both sides of the protestors? Let's be real...some of the counter-protestors came looking for the same exact fight as some of the original protesters.....AND INITIATED IT. They had not intentions of a peaceful counter-protest. Why is it wrong to condemn them as well? And before you say that people are, if you watch the news at all, all they are doing is making excuses for them. I have not heard one condemnation for their acts. I have only heard condemnation for our president because he condemned them along with the violent kkk and nazi hate groups.

On the same note, why is it ok for a group of people (Durham, NC) to publicly destroy private government property while the police stand by and watch? Would it have been ok if a klan member tied a rope to a MLK statue and pulled it down? Would people have stood by and done nothing and condoned the behavior? You know as well as I do that there is no way they would have gotten away with it. Oh, and please don't give me the garbage that NC is now looking to find those responsible ....they were right there when it took place. They might arrest someone, but it will only be as a token. That was proven by the fact that they joined the other states caving to the pc left to take down these historical statues.

Again, don't call me a racist. Hate is a terrible thing. Slavery was a terrible thing. But you can't just erase history because you don't like something. Lets call hate and violence exactly what it is ....ON ALL SIDES.  

I'll take "false equivalency" for 600, Alex. So long as I choose not to compare or equate the allied forces with the Nazis while they (Nazis) killed innocent people, I don't think I'll do it with Antifa or BLM when they did it. Can't believe in America, people are actually saying that fighting against Nazis is a bad thing for, far as I can tell, simply not having to admit that the left called this one right on the nose (although this SHOULD BE far from a left vs. right issue).  Don't get me wrong.....you want to have a conversation about the legitimacy of rioting and violence for justice, there's a conversation to be had there in another thread (and we might not disagree as much you think there), however, this whole "both sides" nonsense is nothing other than desperate political posturing for the sake of not saying the other side (in this case the Left) got it right.  There is not a logical comparison.  Both BLM and Antifa are fairly disorganized groups who (a) don't like fascism and (b) insists that black lives matter in a world where they are more and more frequently gunned down unarmed.  People claiming both groups (BLM and Antifa) have participated in riots and been violent.   The other side supports the ethos of a group of people who committed ACTUAL GENOCIDE and we went to ACTUAL WAR with (oh yea, and ran over people who opposed them with a car last weekend, killing one but I'm sure there was blame on her part too for having the nerve to stand up to Nazis in America).  And so long as we continue to not condemn ONLY Nazis (because they are friggin' Nazis), they will continue to gain a louder voice in this country.  

[Deleted]

It's not in line with my generally pacifist stance, but when it comes to the KKK and Nazis, I am reminded of Bruce Cockburn's line: "Gotta kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight". And I for one am grateful for the allied forces who liberated my country from the Nazi forces. There simply is no comparison. There is creating hate, and there is fighting hate, and the two ARE NOT THE SAME. That comes way too close to calling white black and vice versa, something Jesus opposed.

[Cam Pence]

Aug 16, 2017 9:36:25 GMT -5 Jim Bentley said:

So....in an effort to create some movement here...and hopefully have some dialog that doesn't turn ugly .....

One thing I know that we can all agree on is the groups like the KKK are disgusting and full of hate...lets be clear on that. There is no excuse for the way they act or the ideals that they push and represent. That being said, why are people so against wanting to speak against the same violent behavior from the alt-left group that was represented in Charlottesville. If we believe in freedom, then didn't even a disgusting, racist group have the right to protest the removal of the statue in that park as long as it was without violence? Why did the Charlottesville police not do more to put themselves in between both sides of the protestors? Let's be real...some of the counter-protestors came looking for the same exact fight as some of the original protesters.....AND INITIATED IT. They had not intentions of a peaceful counter-protest. Why is it wrong to condemn them as well? And before you say that people are, if you watch the news at all, all they are doing is making excuses for them. I have not heard one condemnation for their acts. I have only heard condemnation for our president because he condemned them along with the violent kkk and nazi hate groups.

On the same note, why is it ok for a group of people (Durham, NC) to publicly destroy private government property while the police stand by and watch? Would it have been ok if a klan member tied a rope to a MLK statue and pulled it down? Would people have stood by and done nothing and condoned the behavior? You know as well as I do that there is no way they would have gotten away with it. Oh, and please don't give me the garbage that NC is now looking to find those responsible ....they were right there when it took place. They might arrest someone, but it will only be as a token. That was proven by the fact that they joined the other states caving to the pc left to take down these historical statues.

Again, don't call me a racist. Hate is a terrible thing. Slavery was a terrible thing. But you can't just erase history because you don't like something. Lets call hate and violence exactly what it is ....ON ALL SIDES.  

On a side note......I wondered if this argument would make it to the .NET and though I vehemently disagree with your assessment, I have a feeling it may just increase participation around here

[Karen Troxler]

Can I disagree with violence no matter where it comes from, but at the same time, not see both sides as equivalent? The anti-protesters wouldn't have had to come had the white supremacy/Nazi groups not come in the first place. I disagree with the President's assertion that there were "fine people on both sides." Fine people don't believe that other people are inferior based on the color of their skin, their ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

[Cam Pence]

Aug 17, 2017 10:10:41 GMT -5 Karen Troxler said:

Can I disagree with violence no matter where it comes from, but at the same time, not see both sides as equivalent? The anti-protesters wouldn't have had to come had the white supremacy/Nazi groups not come in the first place. I disagree with the President's assertion that there were "fine people on both sides." Fine people don't believe that other people are inferior based on the color of their skin, their ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

Yes, you can.....in fact my friend Chris just wrote an awesome blog article that suggests just that.... pretty much 100% sums up how I believe Christians should feel about this.  Check it out: iamchrisgilmore.com/2017/08/17/not-all-sin-is-equal/

[Jim Bentley]

Aug 17, 2017 10:52:13 GMT -5 Cam Pence said:

Aug 17, 2017 10:10:41 GMT -5 Karen Troxler said:

Can I disagree with violence no matter where it comes from, but at the same time, not see both sides as equivalent? The anti-protesters wouldn't have had to come had the white supremacy/Nazi groups not come in the first place. I disagree with the President's assertion that there were "fine people on both sides." Fine people don't believe that other people are inferior based on the color of their skin, their ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, etc.

Yes, you can.....in fact my friend Chris just wrote an awesome blog article that suggests just that.... pretty much 100% sums up how I believe Christians should feel about this.  Check it out: iamchrisgilmore.com/2017/08/17/not-all-sin-is-equal/

This is a good article and I want to go on record to say that I agree with Karen's assessment. I don't believe that there were "fine" people on both sides. If you affiliate with a group such as the KKK or Nazi's, you are full of hate. I saw this first hand while we were in VA. The church I was at was only 20-30 minutes from where all of this went down. I will never forget the feeling of unbelief that went through me the first time I saw a flyer for a KKK meeting stapled to a telephone pole!

But that being said, I still think its wrong to not only accept violence on the other side, but also condone it. To turn a blind eye at sin simply because one sin is worse then the other is wrong. If people can't see that the hatred and bigotry is just as deep for some (notice I did not say all) on the other side, then they are blind. The guy who drove his car into the crowd should be tried as a terrorist. But I think that those who went down there with all sorts of weapons with every intention of using them should have also been arrested. Now, of course their sentence shouldn't equal that of the driver of the car, but there should be consequences. 

I'm sure many on here wouldn't agree, but I also place some blame on the government officials who have caved to PC and made the decision to remove those statues in the first place.

And thanks Cam....the whole point of the post was to get some movement around here ..... at least its working a little bit. Quite honestly, this format to me is exactly the same as it was on .com.

[Cam Pence]

Aug 17, 2017 13:08:51 GMT -5 Jim Bentley said:

Aug 17, 2017 10:52:13 GMT -5 Cam Pence said:

Yes, you can.....in fact my friend Chris just wrote an awesome blog article that suggests just that.... pretty much 100% sums up how I believe Christians should feel about this.  Check it out: iamchrisgilmore.com/2017/08/17/not-all-sin-is-equal/

This is a good article and I want to go on record to say that I agree with Karen's assessment. I don't believe that there were "fine" people on both sides. If you affiliate with a group such as the KKK or Nazi's, you are full of hate. I saw this first hand while we were in VA. The church I was at was only 20-30 minutes from where all of this went down. I will never forget the feeling of unbelief that went through me the first time I saw a flyer for a KKK meeting stapled to a telephone pole!

But that being said, I still think its wrong to not only accept violence on the other side, but also condone it. To turn a blind eye at sin simply because one sin is worse then the other is wrong. If people can't see that the hatred and bigotry is just as deep for some (notice I did not say all) on the other side, then they are blind. The guy who drove his car into the crowd should be tried as a terrorist. But I think that those who went down there with all sorts of weapons with every intention of using them should have also been arrested. Now, of course their sentence shouldn't equal that of the driver of the car, but there should be consequences. 

I'm sure many on here wouldn't agree, but I also place some blame on the government officials who have caved to PC and made the decision to remove those statues in the first place.

And thanks Cam....the whole point of the post was to get some movement around here ..... at least its working a little bit. Quite honestly, this format to me is exactly the same as it was on .com.

Thank YOU! Seriously. I'll be honest and tell you all that I have checked back here about 4 or 5 times today. Forgot how much fun it was to do that

[Jim Bentley]

Aug 16, 2017 11:21:34 GMT -5 Dennis Bratcher said:

Aug 16, 2017 10:23:43 GMT -5 Jim Bentley said:

Dennis....shouldn't violence on both sides be condemned in either case? MLK was a promoter of peace. Taking a stand against something without stooping to their level. As a Christian, and based on Christian ethics, I do not for one minute condone anything that those hate groups promote. But at the same time, we shouldn't in any way condone those who came to Charlottesville looking for a fight making the first move...or even dressing themselves in the same way that the hate groups did. I also will not condone what happened in Durham. Like i said, had the same thing happened with the groups reversed, there would be such a loud outcry, it would be deafening.

Are you advocating a pacifist position?  If so, then your argument might have some validity.  On the other hand, would you condemn Dietrich Bonhoeffer for participating in the plot to assassinate Hitler, which he did on Christian moral and ethical grounds?  That is not an excuse for violence.  It only highlights the complexity of the issue.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

Dennis, in some ways I AM advocating for a pacifist position in this case. I get that the issue is complex. I just think that that all we are hearing and seeing is a one sided version and the bad needs to be pointed out all over. It's as if the message being sent is that those on the alt-left side had every right to do what they did simply because of the fact that the original protest was being help by members of horrible hate groups.

[Dennis Bratcher]

Aug 17, 2017 13:13:26 GMT -5 Jim Bentley said:

Aug 16, 2017 11:21:34 GMT -5 Dennis Bratcher said:

Are you advocating a pacifist position?  If so, then your argument might have some validity.  On the other hand, would you condemn Dietrich Bonhoeffer for participating in the plot to assassinate Hitler, which he did on Christian moral and ethical grounds?  That is not an excuse for violence.  It only highlights the complexity of the issue.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

Dennis, in some ways I AM advocating for a pacifist position in this case. I get that the issue is complex. I just think that that all we are hearing and seeing is a one sided version and the bad needs to be pointed out all over. It's as if the message being sent is that those on the alt-left side had every right to do what they did simply because of the fact that the original protest was being help by members of horrible hate groups.

I'll mostly defer to Cam's comments earlier.

As far as "had every right," this again begins to blur the lines between civil and religious arguments. Under Virginia's rather liberal gun laws, yes, those on the "alt left" (although that label has no real meaning) had as much civil right to be armed as did the white supremacists. That is the reality of civil law.

We can question the wisdom of such confrontation (but then there was no gun battle). We can question the ethical decision of such confrontation (but then the argument of confronting hate and racism must factor in). And we can suggest that there were better and more constructive ways to deal with the situation (but the reality is what it is; rarely is hatred willing to negotiate). But the bottom line is that there is simply no moral equivalency between the two groups. Having lived in both Virginia and Maryland, having lived in a 98% black community, and worshipped with a 99% black community of Faith, I understand some of the deep and profound pain and frustration associated with all forms of racism. From that perspective, the confrontation was not only inevitable but necessary, both from a social and moral perspective.

Would I have chosen to bring weapons or clubs to such a counter protest? No! And neither did MLK, Jr. But that is a personal ethical decision. Did some on both sides have less than pure motives? Of course! They are human. Yet, I simply do not think that we can sit comfortably half way across the country, from a much different cultural, social, historical, and ethnic context and pass judgement on how others from within those different contexts confronted evil in the world. The three men sporting automatic weapons standing outside the synagogue were not "fine people." Those carrying a Nazi flag were not "fine people." Those advocating violence to establish the supremacy of the white race were not "fine people." That is the face of evil. And it needs to be confronted. That is a moral imperative. How it is done is an ethical decision.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Emiko Cothran]

As Christians I believe we are called to love our enemies and never repay evil with evil or to "resist an evildoer" using force or violence.

Jesus did not defend himself even as he was wrongly accused, beaten, and murdered. In fact, he healed one of his attackers and prayed for the forgiveness of those who were brutally murdering him.

So, I agree we need to fight racism with the same pacifism we fight all evil...

That said, I can not guarantee if I went to a counter protest intending to be peaceful and I was overwhelmed and scared and backed into a corner with torches and people threatoning and shouting at me that I wouldn't hit someone. I might... Fear and adrenaline sometimes make people break their moral codes.

I would say to condem the counter protestors would be to condem all violence, including military action...

Which I am okay with... But many Christians are not.

[Karen Troxler]

On a completely different note, where were you in VA Jim? My son, daughter-in-law, and granddaughter moved to Stuarts Draft this week, where Meghan will be an associate pastor in the Nazarene church there. They took a trip to Charlottesville today, which is about a half hour away from where they live.

[Jim Bentley]

Aug 17, 2017 15:34:32 GMT -5 Karen Troxler said:

On a completely different note, where were you in VA Jim? My son, daughter-in-law, and granddaughter moved to Stuarts Draft this week, where Meghan will be an associate pastor in the Nazarene church there. They took a trip to Charlottesville today, which is about a half hour away from where they live.

Hey Karen....I was in Waynesboro at CFC (is that where they will be at? Waynesboro and Stuarts Draft are right next to each other). They will really like Dr. Phil. Make sure they hike Humpback Rock!!!

[Benjamin Hobbs]

Aug 17, 2017 14:23:18 GMT -5 Dennis Bratcher said:

Aug 17, 2017 13:13:26 GMT -5 Jim Bentley said:

Dennis, in some ways I AM advocating for a pacifist position in this case. I get that the issue is complex. I just think that that all we are hearing and seeing is a one sided version and the bad needs to be pointed out all over. It's as if the message being sent is that those on the alt-left side had every right to do what they did simply because of the fact that the original protest was being help by members of horrible hate groups.

I'll mostly defer to Cam's comments earlier.

As far as "had every right," this again begins to blur the lines between civil and religious arguments. Under Virginia's rather liberal gun laws, yes, those on the "alt left" (although that label has no real meaning) had as much civil right to be armed as did the white supremacists. That is the reality of civil law.

We can question the wisdom of such confrontation (but then there was no gun battle). We can question the ethical decision of such confrontation (but then the argument of confronting hate and racism must factor in). And we can suggest that there were better and more constructive ways to deal with the situation (but the reality is what it is; rarely is hatred willing to negotiate). But the bottom line is that there is simply no moral equivalency between the two groups. Having lived in both Virginia and Maryland, having lived in a 98% black community, and worshipped with a 99% black community of Faith, I understand some of the deep and profound pain and frustration associated with all forms of racism. From that perspective, the confrontation was not only inevitable but necessary, both from a social and moral perspective.

Would I have chosen to bring weapons or clubs to such a counter protest? No! And neither did MLK, Jr. But that is a personal ethical decision. Did some on both sides have less than pure motives? Of course! They are human. Yet, I simply do not think that we can sit comfortably half way across the country, from a much different cultural, social, historical, and ethnic context and pass judgement on how others from within those different contexts confronted evil in the world. The three men sporting automatic weapons standing outside the synagogue were not "fine people." Those carrying a Nazi flag were not "fine people." Those advocating violence to establish the supremacy of the white race were not "fine people." That is the face of evil. And it needs to be confronted. That is a moral imperative. How it is done is an ethical decision.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

To an extent I think we can and should judge what was done and why. This is more than forming an opinion. I, like you have noticed that there are intricacies in the actions of Bonhoeffer.  But I don't think that being consistent in acting as if non-violence can be a valid position is something beyond what Christians can be expected to follow. 

[Karen Troxler]

Aug 17, 2017 21:12:28 GMT -5 Jim Bentley said:

Aug 17, 2017 15:34:32 GMT -5 Karen Troxler said:

On a completely different note, where were you in VA Jim? My son, daughter-in-law, and granddaughter moved to Stuarts Draft this week, where Meghan will be an associate pastor in the Nazarene church there. They took a trip to Charlottesville today, which is about a half hour away from where they live.

Hey Karen....I was in Waynesboro at CFC (is that where they will be at? Waynesboro and Stuarts Draft are right next to each other). They will really like Dr. Phil. Make sure they hike Humpback Rock!!!

They will be at Good Shepherd COTN. Charles Perkins is the lead pastor. Meghan did a lot of research and heard only great things about Dr. Phil and the VA District. I'm excited for them even though they are farther away. We plan to visit in mid Sept.

[Jim Bentley]

Aug 18, 2017 10:45:56 GMT -5 Karen Troxler said:

Aug 17, 2017 21:12:28 GMT -5 Jim Bentley said:

Hey Karen....I was in Waynesboro at CFC (is that where they will be at? Waynesboro and Stuarts Draft are right next to each other). They will really like Dr. Phil. Make sure they hike Humpback Rock!!!

They will be at Good Shepherd COTN. Charles Perkins is the lead pastor. Meghan did a lot of research and heard only great things about Dr. Phil and the VA District. I'm excited for them even though they are farther away. We plan to visit in mid Sept.

Enjoy your visit. The weather should be great! Tons to do. They live right off of the AT (like 5 minutes) so there are a ton of great blue blaze trails to hike off of the AT. Like I said, Humpback is a must! Then of course you have Richmond, as well as VA Beach not too far away plus DC is a great day trip.

[Jim Bentley]

The more I read about ANTIFA, the more disgusted I get. Would i say they are on the same level of the KKK or Nazi's, no. But their violent approach is no better and getting close to mirroring that of those other hate groups. Their racism and intolerance just take on a different look. This is the same mentality that will say (or already says) that if i preach that homosexuality is a sin from the pulpit, i should be put in prison for hate speech.

Edit to add ....this is a good article imo by Dr. Brown

charismanews.com/opinion/in-the-line-of-fire/66902-the-media-s-glaring-double-standards-on-violence-and-hate-2

[Greg Farra]

Aug 16, 2017 23:53:47 GMT -5 @hans said:

It's not in line with my generally pacifist stance, but when it comes to the KKK and Nazis, I am reminded of Bruce Cockburn's line: "Gotta kick at the darkness till it bleeds daylight". And I for one am grateful for the allied forces who liberated my country from the Nazi forces. There simply is no comparison. There is creating hate, and there is fighting hate, and the two ARE NOT THE SAME. That comes way too close to calling white black and vice versa, something Jesus opposed.

Well, on behalf of my father, who fought in Europe (including The Battle of the Bulge) I thank you for your kind words.

[Emiko Cothran]

I don't know a ton about ANTIFA, and the reviews I do see are mixed. But I will say this, unequivocally: When fighting evil we must never stoop to doing evil ourselves.

Fighting evil without resorting to violence can be dangerous and difficult... And you might not see how you could possibly win when the other side used weapons and force and violence and you insist on peace...

But it is what our Lord commands of us.

And the example he showed us.

It is one of the ways we are called to be different from the world.

[Dennis Bratcher]

Aug 18, 2017 11:38:35 GMT -5 Jim Bentley said:

The more I read about ANTIFA, the more disgusted I get. Would i say they are on the same level of the KKK or Nazi's, no. But their violent approach is no better and getting close to mirroring that of those other hate groups. Their racism and intolerance just take on a different look. This is the same mentality that will say (or already says) that if i preach that homosexuality is a sin from the pulpit, i should be put in prison for hate speech.

Edit to add ....this is a good article imo by Dr. Brown

charismanews.com/opinion/in-the-line-of-fire/66902-the-media-s-glaring-double-standards-on-violence-and-hate-2

I would tend to agree about ANTIFA in terms of general ideology and tactics. As one op-ed writer put it, sometimes the enemy of my enemy is just a thug. But then, we have to remember that not all, or even the majority, of the counter protesters were ANTIFA. Many were simply citizens of Charlottesville who objected to the use of their town as a platform for hate and racism. BLM supporters were basically protesting the racism of white supremacy while committed to MLK's principle of non-violence. There were several dozen clergy from various churches who stood against the protesters locked arm in arm. There was a prayer service the night before attended by over 1,000 people. And there were many who were simply opposing the hatred that the KKK and Nazi banners represented.

There are several accounts of ANTIFA members interjecting themselves between the protesters and these groups to protect them from attack. They also took positions to protect churches, which the police were not doing. Did ANTIFA start the violence? It is difficult from the videos to tell who actually instigated the violence. But it is clear from eyewitness accounts that the UR protestors were deliberately and consistently on the attack both verbally and physically. And those eyewitness accounts give ANTIFA credit for preventing further violence against the peaceful protestors.

Let me be clear. I am not advocating violence in the name of God as a first response. And I think MLK's model of non-violent resistance is a better Christian response, as did most of the counter protestors. But I do not think that total pacifism is necessarily an absolute Christian response. As Hans said so well, sometimes right must stand up to evil directly. And sometimes to protect others violence against evil is necessary, if not required. As I said earlier, when and how that is done is an ethical decision.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

[Jim Bentley]

Aug 20, 2017 10:57:05 GMT -5 Dennis Bratcher said:

Aug 18, 2017 11:38:35 GMT -5 Jim Bentley said:

The more I read about ANTIFA, the more disgusted I get. Would i say they are on the same level of the KKK or Nazi's, no. But their violent approach is no better and getting close to mirroring that of those other hate groups. Their racism and intolerance just take on a different look. This is the same mentality that will say (or already says) that if i preach that homosexuality is a sin from the pulpit, i should be put in prison for hate speech.

Edit to add ....this is a good article imo by Dr. Brown

charismanews.com/opinion/in-the-line-of-fire/66902-the-media-s-glaring-double-standards-on-violence-and-hate-2

I would tend to agree about ANTIFA in terms of general ideology and tactics. As one op-ed writer put it, sometimes the enemy of my enemy is just a thug. But then, we have to remember that not all, or even the majority, of the counter protesters were ANTIFA. Many were simply citizens of Charlottesville who objected to the use of their town as a platform for hate and racism. BLM supporters were basically protesting the racism of white supremacy while committed to MLK's principle of non-violence. There were several dozen clergy from various churches who stood against the protesters locked arm in arm. There was a prayer service the night before attended by over 1,000 people. And there were many who were simply opposing the hatred that the KKK and Nazi banners represented.

There are several accounts of ANTIFA members interjecting themselves between the protesters and these groups to protect them from attack. They also took positions to protect churches, which the police were not doing. Did ANTIFA start the violence? It is difficult from the videos to tell who actually instigated the violence. But it is clear from eyewitness accounts that the UR protestors were deliberately and consistently on the attack both verbally and physically. And those eyewitness accounts give ANTIFA credit for preventing further violence against the peaceful protestors.

Let me be clear. I am not advocating violence in the name of God as a first response. And I think MLK's model of non-violent resistance is a better Christian response, as did most of the counter protestors. But I do not think that total pacifism is necessarily an absolute Christian response. As Hans said so well, sometimes right must stand up to evil directly. And sometimes to protect others violence against evil is necessary, if not required. As I said earlier, when and how that is done is an ethical decision.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

Dennis, I agree with everything you have said here and think you have said it well. My original intent in at the start was just in voicing my frustration with how the media was representing the story as completely one sided when there were in fact bad people on both sides.

[Dennis Bratcher]

Aug 20, 2017 21:11:10 GMT -5 Jim Bentley said:

Aug 20, 2017 10:57:05 GMT -5 Dennis Bratcher said:

I would tend to agree about ANTIFA in terms of general ideology and tactics. As one op-ed writer put it, sometimes the enemy of my enemy is just a thug. But then, we have to remember that not all, or even the majority, of the counter protesters were ANTIFA. Many were simply citizens of Charlottesville who objected to the use of their town as a platform for hate and racism. BLM supporters were basically protesting the racism of white supremacy while committed to MLK's principle of non-violence. There were several dozen clergy from various churches who stood against the protesters locked arm in arm. There was a prayer service the night before attended by over 1,000 people. And there were many who were simply opposing the hatred that the KKK and Nazi banners represented.

There are several accounts of ANTIFA members interjecting themselves between the protesters and these groups to protect them from attack. They also took positions to protect churches, which the police were not doing. Did ANTIFA start the violence? It is difficult from the videos to tell who actually instigated the violence. But it is clear from eyewitness accounts that the UR protestors were deliberately and consistently on the attack both verbally and physically. And those eyewitness accounts give ANTIFA credit for preventing further violence against the peaceful protestors.

Let me be clear. I am not advocating violence in the name of God as a first response. And I think MLK's model of non-violent resistance is a better Christian response, as did most of the counter protestors. But I do not think that total pacifism is necessarily an absolute Christian response. As Hans said so well, sometimes right must stand up to evil directly. And sometimes to protect others violence against evil is necessary, if not required. As I said earlier, when and how that is done is an ethical decision.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.

Dennis, I agree with everything you have said here and think you have said it well. My original intent in at the start was just in voicing my frustration with how the media was representing the story as completely one sided when there were in fact bad people on both sides.

Aug 20, 2017 21:11:10 GMT -5 Jim Bentley said:
Dennis, I agree with everything you have said here and think you have said it well. My original intent in at the start was just in voicing my frustration with how the media was representing the story as completely one sided when there were in fact bad people on both sides.

From a certain political perspective, I can understand the frustration. Yet this returns to the original problem. Advocating afascist political agenda, carrying Nazi flags and displaying various neo-Nazi emblems, sporting KKK banners and patches, carrying semi-automatic weapons while physically and verbally attacking peaceful counter-protesters, spewing all forms of verbal anti-Semitic, racial, social, and white supremacist hatred, laying siege to churches and a synagogues, etc., is not the same kind of "bad" as those standing against such actions, even if we might not personally condone the tactics employed. While we may criticize one set of actions as imprudent, the other set of actions is a violation of the most basic moral values of humanity, and therefore is simply evil. To fail to acknowledge that disparity, or to try to make them equivalent, is to risk losing any sort of moral compass.

Grace and Peace,

Dennis B.